Creative Crossroads
Welcome to Creative Crossroads, where creators share their stories and processes. Each episode features conversations with artists, designers, and makers about their work, inspiration, and creative journey.
Join us to explore how ideas come to life and learn from creators who are shaping their fields. Creative Crossroads: Where makers meet, and ideas grow.
Creative Crossroads
Season 1 Finale and Reflections
Creative Crossroads: Season 1 Finale and Reflections
In the final episode of Season 1 of the Creative Crossroads podcast, hosts Catherine and Ellyn reflect on key learnings from their journey exploring creativity with various guests. They identify common themes such as the essential nature of creativity, the importance of the creative process over the final product, the role of community, managing creative blocks, balancing structure and spontaneity, and the evolution of creative practices. The conversation delves into individual episodes, highlighting insights from guests like Dusty, Amanda, Dori, Mel, Charles, and Amelia. Catherine and Ellyn also announce an exciting upcoming creative retreat, Remix and Stitch Lab, scheduled for September. This episode is packed with valuable reflections and sets the stage for a broader exploration of creativity in future seasons.
00:00 Introduction and Overview of the Season
01:16 Identifying Key Themes in Creativity
03:56 The Importance of Process Over Product
06:06 The Role of Community in Creativity
10:15 Managing Creative Blocks
12:48 Balancing Structure and Spontaneity
15:14 Evolution of Creative Practices
20:26 Inspiration in Everyday Life
22:37 Deep Dive into Dusty's Interview
26:56 Exploring Amanda Dunbar's Creative Journey
28:17 The Butt Phase and Knowing When to Stop
29:03 Perfectionism vs. Completion
30:20 The Feedback Loop of Creativity
30:55 Meeting Dori: A Fun Conversation
31:34 The Essential Nature of Creativity
33:39 Transitioning from Dreaming Bear
35:55 Self-Judgment in Art
38:58 Mel Beach: The Importance of Play
43:07 Charles: The Analytical Creative
47:13 Amelia: Art Therapy and Personal Expression
52:33 Inspiring Creativity: Upcoming Retreat
54:30 Season Recap and Future Plans
Thanks for joining us at Creative Crossroads! Keep creating and we'll see you again soon!
Hello and welcome back to the final episode of our first season of the Creative Crossroads podcast. Today it's just Ellen and I and we're going to talk about What we've learned from this season of creative crossroads. We started this podcast in an exploration to learn about how other people express their creativity. And so we thought that today we would go through what we saw as overall themes across all of the episodes, and then talk about each episode individually and what stood out and what we learned from each individual person that we interviewed this season. Ellen, let's get started.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Let's do this.
Catherine Dutton:All right. So we both went through and we listened to all the episodes again and we made notes. And in my typical researcher fashion, I have made a list of themes across all of
Ellyn Zinsmeister:the episodes. I appreciate Researcher Catherine because in my mind, I think haphazard, scattered format. I just made notes and they're all over the place. And so I will make mine fit into the themes and it will all be very nice.
Catherine Dutton:Oh, it will be perfect. And if there's anything that stands out that wasn't in those, I want to hear that as well. Yeah. So if we, if we're looking at across all of the interviews that we did this season, I saw six distinct themes stand out. And so I thought we could kind of just go through and talk through each of them individually. The first theme was that creativity is something essential, innate, and it, for the people that we interviewed, they described it as something that wasn't optional, but it was fundamental to their human experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Right. you hear
Catherine Dutton:about that?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think that's true. And I mean, each situation was different. Some of them work a day job and then creativity is secondary. but still very essential to their life. Some of them have transitioned from traditional jobs into creative lifestyles and creative jobs. Some of them have just always lived a creative lifestyle all around. And for all of them, they really emphasize that without creativity. Their life wasn't as meaningful or, you know, as powerful. So
Catherine Dutton:yeah, and I really liked, like, Dori emphasized that she thinks everybody's creative, but there's just really different ways of being creative. And I think that stood out to me in thinking about, We all have different ways that we're creative and different ways that we express our creativity. And while we interviewed visual artists this season, next season, we're hoping to expand that beyond those, that type of creativity. Because we all are creative in how we think about things.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I loved a lot of them talked about their parents. Were your parents creative? Well, my mother was a dancer. So not real. I'm like, Oh my goodness, you know, that's so creative. And, you know, so they were creative in different ways, maybe not in the visual arts, but it certainly inspired each one. And I, I think that's so, so true. I see it with my own children. One of my three children is very creative in the visual arts and inspired that way, but the others have, you know, gifts. They're, they're dancers and writers and broadcasters, and they use their creative gifts in different ways, and they just don't recognize it as such.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. Yeah. I see it all the time with students that I will tell them, you know, like, be creative in this assignment. And my students will be like, I'm not a creative person. And I'm like, Oh, I am sure that you are creative. You're just thinking like, I don't draw. I think oftentimes people think creativity equals I can draw or I can paint or something like that. And that's creativity spans so much more than that. I think it's important to acknowledge that in ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I agree. I agree. That was a great common theme. Another thing that they all talked about was how they found their process to be so much more important than the final product. That was your second category.
Catherine Dutton:So that was the second theme was the focus on the journey rather than just the result. And I think you and I have had that conversation a lot because I am definitely a journey person.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:We a lot of stuff together that never makes it to Instagram.
Catherine Dutton:We do, we do, and I make a lot of stuff that like never even turns up in a finished product either, either, because for me that final product is just not, I don't care if there is one, it's really about just like sitting there and making something, but I don't have to do anything with it, but you are, you're a finisher, you finish things, which is cool too. Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister:but I'm starting to recognize how important that process is. And maybe doing more art journaling where it's a gradual, I may work on a A journal for a couple of years. I may come back to it, add to it. So I think that's something I'm learning and that's becoming more important to me.
Catherine Dutton:One thing that stood out to me was Dusty talked about how every project that she has will inform the next one and so that the process Develops our skills over time and teaches and like in Practicing like process is really practice, right? And so the more that we practice things the more the better we get at it and the each of those moments of practice and it inspires us to do something different. And we start to ask questions and get curious and go, what if I did this? Or what if I tried this? And like, I'm thinking about, you did some improv flowers lately and you were like, Ooh, what if I did this? And it was just like a little fun one day project, but I think it's evolving into something bigger for you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think it is. Charles talked a lot about that too, about being part of the bee and using bee prompts and block prompts to grow into something bigger that he might expand on later on that he might turn into a bigger piece of work or, you know, a bigger quilt or another piece.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. And actually that, that's, that's transitions us into the third theme really nicely, which is the role of community. And so I know Charles talked about like how participating in the bee was just this huge creative step for him. And it allowed him the opportunity, like you said, to, to experience quilting in a different sort of way.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Right. And we mentioned the bee now and then in the podcast, and I've never really explained that,
Catherine Dutton:Will you explain it?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:sure, another friend, Sarah Gower from California, and I formed the Quilts Unscripted Bee during the pandemic. There were quite a few of us wanting to work collaboratively, and it was hard. It was really hard to do during those times. So we came up with a way to do it. online where we found people all across the country. We invited people, people we knew really well that worked in improv quilting, people we wanted to know better, people whose work we admired and we gathered this group. And so we're going into our fifth year now, starting this year, making improv quilts together, and it's just, I think all of us have grown, um, and really learned from each other. Because you get a prompt, a monthly prompt from someone, and like Charles talked about, it doesn't start in your brain. So you have to do something that somebody else came up with, and find a way to make it your own, and to contribute to their project. So that, for me, that's been a huge Online community, and I typically see those people once a year at QuiltCon, which is coming up, and I really look forward to that, because they've not only become collaborators, but good friends. And, I mean, certainly we have our local quilter, quilting buddies, and just you and I getting together to, to junk journal or whatever, I mean, community is, is key. Another thing that stood out to me, Amanda talked about how Her painting career, she's primarily an oil painter, is so isolating that there's no real community. But once she started dabbling in fiber arts and quilting, she found that community
Catherine Dutton:Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:community.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. And I, that stood out to me with hers, and I, the other one that really stood out to me was Amelia's talking about, um, And she was like, I don't think it's cheating to need community to create structure for ourselves because her use of community wasn't necessarily in like inspiration for creating, but it was creating structure so that she would create. And I, and I, I think for me, that is a big part of community for me, like I go to quilt retreat days or I go to sew days. And that for me is a reason to create because I can easily go three to four weeks without doing anything creative. And I need it. I want it. I need it. I want it. But I don't, but I get busy with work and I just don't make time for it. And that ensures that I create that structure so that I do it. And I like, and even the community I have with you, like doing art days with you means that at least once a week I am doing something creative and
Ellyn Zinsmeister:It's on the calendar.
Catherine Dutton:on the calendar. Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:The other thing was Dori talking about the Dreaming Bear, the shop she owned for, for kids. 10 or 12 years and how that created community. It did not, it did not force her to create personally. It took away from her personal creating time, but it created community and brought people together to make and what, what joy that brought to people in her community.
Catherine Dutton:And I want to talk more about that when we talk about Dori's interview specifically, because she really bought in some unique perspectives there as she talked about the dreaming bear. Yeah. Um, Any other thoughts on the role of community?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:No, I think that's good.
Catherine Dutton:Okay, the fourth theme that I saw was like, how people manage their creative blocks. And I just thought that this was across the board. Like, there were so many different ways that people handled it. And some people were like, oh, wait, who was it? Mel was like, I don't ever have a problem with creative blocks. I have so many things to do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:How great is that?
Catherine Dutton:I know I was like, I'm kind of jealous. And then Amanda was like, Sometimes she just takes a break and goes and works in the yard, like completely different sort of task. And I think Dusty kind of echoed that as well, because she was like, I'll just step away and go work on something else. And I loved Dori's strategy where she was like, I'll set a timer and say, Dori, you can do anything for 20 minutes. And I thought that was a great idea of like, I'm just going to set a time and just like, say, I will do this for 20 minutes. And you just start. She just would start making marks and then next thing she knows, she's doing something fun. And she was like, if I don't have my mojo, at that point, I've set the timer again for another 20 minutes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I know. I love that, and I may start using that. I think that's really great. The other thing that I noticed across the board, I think every single one of them mentioned that when they get really stuck, They stop and clean their studio. That often it's just the mess has gotten out of control. Too many projects, too many supplies, too many things.
Catherine Dutton:I relate to that so well because I know for me, like when my studio gets to a certain point, I have to be like, okay, it's time for a reset. And I just, I can't focus. If there's too much, I can take some clutter in my studio, but if there's too
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Oh,
Catherine Dutton:or if I'm. If there's too much, I just, it bothers me and I can't focus on what the creativity that I want to do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:The other thing I've found, so I recently did a major redo in my studio
Catherine Dutton:You did.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:out, I took everything out, touched everything, sorted everything, and put it all back in in a tidier, more organized way. And just that action of touching all the things, sometimes you come across something that you set aside three years ago and it's like, oh wait, this thing, you know, and then it spurs something else and makes you think, you know, creatively. And either you take that thing and make it into something or you jump off from there. I found a lot of that in that major tidy up of my studio coming across things I had forgotten.
Catherine Dutton:I need to do that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Too bad you don't have any friends with experience in that area, huh?
Catherine Dutton:I
Ellyn Zinsmeister:it on the calendar. That's great.
Catherine Dutton:So the next theme that we found was the balance of structure and spontaneity. And I think again, people really did this differently. Some people saw that they really do both. Charles was like, he almost vacillates between projects, some projects are just inherently more structured and some are more spontaneous for him, whereas Amelia, she was like, left to my own devices. Structure is challenging. I need other people. And I, I related so closely to that one. Dori, similar to Charles, like, sometimes I know exactly what I'm going to do. And there's other days where I show up and I don't have the foggiest. I love that. Like just the openness of sometimes we just don't know what we're going to do. And then there was Mel who had the very, just that structured approach of I roll dice, but it was structure and spontaneity at the same time. I thought that was really cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah. I love how she blended them together. So there's structure to her process, but then each individual day's project is very spontaneous.
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:It was
Catherine Dutton:within the constraints that she's given herself so that she can be successful in it too, which I liked. Mm
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I like that a lot. I think, yeah, I teach improv quilting. Frequently and
Catherine Dutton:hmm. Mm
Ellyn Zinsmeister:to a quilter, just sew the pieces together, just pull two out of a bin. And so, for me, that doesn't work. There needs to be some structure. Today, we're going to work with triangles and you're going to choose a color palette and we're going to work within that color palette. You know, make
Catherine Dutton:Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:improvisationally, then let the spontaneity go. But,
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. And I think it's just, it's so interesting looking at those creative practices because for some people working with a limited color palette might feel really challenging and constraining. Whereas other people need that in order for it to feel like they'll have a cohesive product at the end because they need that color cohesion. For, for them to feel like it looks good. Other people, I don't know how they do it, but like, they really can pull any strip out of the box and just go next. And they end up with a beautiful product.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:isn't that amazing?
Catherine Dutton:I get really struck. I struggle with that one.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I do too. I do too, but I have lots of friends that, you know, scrappy is totally their thing and it ends up just incredibly beautiful, so yeah,
Catherine Dutton:it's incredible. It's yeah, it's really neat to see the different ways that people approach that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I agree with you,
Catherine Dutton:Well, then the final theme that I found across all of them was, um, that creative practices evolve and they're going to change over time. I felt like that really resonated with me and my own experiences with creativity, and my own creative practices. Amelia talked about how she went to art school and it was so focused on critiques. And she, she even said she had to unlearn that practice as she moved into. doing therapy because you definitely can't walk into a therapy room and critique someone's art. Like that's not the point of it
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Right. You wouldn't want to.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not even about the product. It's about the meaning of the product. Um, and I felt, I thought that was so interesting.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think they all, and none of our questions specifically were geared toward evolution in your creative practice, but every conversation kind of went that direction, which was really cool.
Catherine Dutton:It really did. And like Charles talked about how he went from being like, everything was pre planned Like that he would create it in PowerPoint and pre plan it out to now like he spends more time on the design wall And he gives himself time for things to marinate and that's a big shift for him
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I like when Dori talked about, early on she was painting, making things that didn't really even resonate with what she loved. And then she talked about, she had a teacher who said, pay attention to what you pay attention to. And that was just like, what makes your heart sing? What speaks to you? That's the work you want to be aiming toward not, painting that bowl of fruit on a table, which, we all went through in school art classes.
Catherine Dutton:I hated that assignment so much in seventh grade. I really did
Ellyn Zinsmeister:my art teacher told me I didn't have a creative bone in my body because my bowl of fruit didn't look like the bowl of fruit on the table. I'm
Catherine Dutton:it was my one point perspective drawing that was like, yeah, no, you don't have any creativity and I was like
Ellyn Zinsmeister:know?
Catherine Dutton:there's a very big difference between creativity and skill and I think that sometimes we we confuse the two that like to have drawing skills or painting skills equals creativity and that's Those are not the same thing. Um, creativity is about thought process and how we're thinking versus how the skill that we have to enact that creativity. Well,
Ellyn Zinsmeister:that's a thing that evolves over time that, you know, the paying attention, the, I mean, I did a specific project where I picked a color palette and for six months, I'm going to work only in these colors and I'm going to, you know, see where this takes me and see what my voice is, but you don't have to do that. You can just watch your practice as it grows.
Catherine Dutton:you created a beautiful structure for yourself to allow yourself to explore that. and I think that was a really cool way to explore your creativity and kind of find your voice in that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:It was fun. It was, that was a fun project. Yeah, I mean, and again, it was a lot of what Dori talked about, paying attention to what, what I pay attention to. Oh, that painting with the red chair really speaks to me. I wonder if I could jump off of that and use that as inspiration for an improv quilt. And I did, and yeah,
Catherine Dutton:And
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I was, I was following her advice without even knowing what it was.
Catherine Dutton:and I think like that evolution of creative practice. Like our part of our creativity evolving over time does reflect our skill shift as well Like because I was thinking about the conversation I think it was with Dusty where she was saying like in the beginning she used patterns and now she now she really doesn't use Patterns and her quilting and I think that's part of that Creative evolution of having confidence in your own skills to, to be able to just say, I don't need to follow somebody else's directions. I know this craft well enough that I can just jump in and make my own thing.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:And confidence is exactly the word that was coming to my mind. I think, you know, anytime you're new at something copying what someone else does or following their pattern is a good way to learn and a good way to develop your own skill, but then at some point you jump off and have the confidence to be yourself and use your own voice.
Catherine Dutton:I think that is part of that creative process evolution.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I'll be curious to see how that is reflected with different kinds of creative people outside the visual arts.
Catherine Dutton:Yes, I just thinking the same thing, like, are we going to see that as we start to talk to other creative people?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I'll bet we will.
Catherine Dutton:I bet it'll be interesting. Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:It will.
Catherine Dutton:All right.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:those were great themes, Catherine. Thank you and your researcher mind for going there.
Catherine Dutton:Did you have any other things that you saw come across? All of them? Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:of mine fit in to all of yours. The only other thing I consistently heard all of our artists say is that inspiration is everywhere. And in one way or another, they all said, well, I find inspiration in my morning cup of coffee or in the buildings or in the flowers. You know, talked about seeing inspiration in their daily lives, and, uh, I thought that was interesting, too. No matter what their daily lives look like, and they all look different. They were all in different locations, and
Catherine Dutton:I think that really goes back to what Dori said about paying attention to what you pay attention to, because I think the things that we pay attention to can be the things that inspire us. And I think it was you and Amelia talking about nature, like that wasn't necessarily something that appealed to you. that inspired either of you? I hope I'm saying the right person, but I am inspired by nature, but I'm inspired by, I've realized I pay attention to other things other than that. And so I've started to take pictures of the things I pay attention to and go, okay, How can that inspire me? I love clouds. Like that is something I pay attention to because I drive across bridges every day. And so I see like nothing but the water and the clouds as I'm doing that. And I never thought about it until Dori's interview. And I was like, I wonder what I could do with that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:There you go. And for me, it's buildings.
Catherine Dutton:It is for you. Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:It's buildings and I've been known to trip over cracks in the sidewalk in New York City because I'm so busy looking up the buildings.
Catherine Dutton:Oh, that could be dangerous. Be careful.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:yeah, I've had to learn to be more careful. I think Mel and I had a good conversation about this too. Having just recently come through the pandemic where all of us were experiencing some isolation and we had to find inspiration. We had to find ways to be inspired within our bubbles. You know, I
Catherine Dutton:Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Going to New York City and walking up and down the streets was not an option for me during the pandemic, but, getting out of my house, finding inspiration where I could. And she talked about the same thing.
Catherine Dutton:So I'm going to use that as a jumping off point to transition to talking about Dusty's interview because one thing that was different about hers was like other people use like buildings or nature, outdoor things as their inspiration. Dusty used words as inspiration. And so she used that as her catalyst for like her other quilts. and sometimes like the words would be directly on the quilt and, sometimes it was the quote that inspired the quilt for her, which I thought was unique. And it was different from what we heard from other people about that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think you're right. I also love about Dusty, how she incorporates, digital
Catherine Dutton:Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I mean, I am, I'm a graph paper and pencil girl, confess. And part of that is because There weren't even computers until I was well into adulthood, so I'm, I'm revealing my age here, but Dusty uses, uses digital media in incredible ways that I find really interesting,
Catherine Dutton:And I think what makes hers unique is that it's not just that she uses it, but she really integrates the digital technology with traditional quilting. She's not just creating digital products like she's integrating it with that traditional practice, which is really cool
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Using it to manipulate images and words more as her planning process, which Charles talked about too.
Catherine Dutton:But and also about her execution, like using the laser cutter to cut out her words. And she's really cool, I think one thing that I love about Dusty's quilting is her dying that she does. She embraces the unpredictability of it. She talked about how, sometimes she'll just let them pile up until they inspire her to do something. Which was kind of cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah. And how she does multiple at one time.
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:do you have a quilt idea? And then dye a piece for, and she's like, no, that would never work.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I thought that was fascinating. Her ice dyed fabrics are incredibly beautiful.
Catherine Dutton:Oh, they are so lovely. Yeah. And I think one of the other parts that I really appreciated about the conversation with her was just the very personal disclosure and conversation that we had about imposter syndrome and how like that personal struggle of like, will anybody else appreciate this? Is does my voice matter in all of this? And I think that that is a very real thing that many of us experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:absolutely. If not all of us,
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. Well, yeah, all of us experience it and whether we're experiencing it in the creative realm or in the professional realm, or even like in our relationships, we can experience imposter syndrome in all of those areas. And I think it's something that. We're starting to talk about more, but it's just something that we often feel like. I can't say that I feel like an imposter, but I feel like I'm an imposter, but if you said that you were, it felt like it, everybody else would be like, Oh yeah, I feel like that too. Me too. I'm all there. Everybody's there. We're all there together.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:right?
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:The other thing she talked about that really struck me was how important it is to her to encourage others, specifically her niece as a nephew and, and how she's so intentional about that. And even in the quotes she uses, how intentional she is about inclusivity and about what message she's sending out to this younger generation. And I just. I've just loved that.
Catherine Dutton:I did too. okay, I want to say two things about that. the first one is that she talked about how creativity was really important for her and getting through rough times in life. Creativity was almost a refuge for her at times. I feel like that was so important and just a beautiful way to look at how creativity can impact our lives in such a positive way.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I really enjoyed talking to Dusty, and Dusty's someone who's been in our lives for ten years, the whole time she's been quilting, but I learned so much that I didn't already know, and it was fun to explore those things with her.
Catherine Dutton:it really was. I've always admired the work that she does and I think one of the reasons we picked her is we were both like, I'd like to pick her brain more and understand more about how her brain works with all of this.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Absolutely, absolutely. And another person that we've known personally. and finally got the opportunity to really dive into her mind was Amanda Dunbar. Amanda is, a local artist who we've met through the Fiber Arts World, which is not her primary world of creativity, but that's where we met her. And we were like, Oh, we want it. We want to know more about Amanda. So
Catherine Dutton:Well, and I, I have to be honest, I did not realize that Amanda was a world renowned, incredibly famous oil painter when we interviewed her. Maybe I
Ellyn Zinsmeister:on the Oprah show.
Catherine Dutton:and maybe I should enter, maybe I should. Maybe I should Google my friends more often.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Oh, don't Google me. Please don't. But it was neat because that was a little different perspective, you know, coming from that angle.
Catherine Dutton:It really was. And I liked, like, when she talked about, commissions I really appreciated what she said when a client shows her things that she's created that they like, and then said, here's the space it's going to go in and go for it. So like, again, giving some structure, but also allowing. For freedom and something that's going to fit that client versus just replicating something that already exists.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:The other thing that jumped out to me from her interview, this was hilarious, when she talked about going through the butt phase of any individual
Catherine Dutton:my gosh, yes, that was great.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:so great, how every piece of work, you start and you get into it, and then it, you look at it and go, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This is ugly, this is horrible, and she calls that the butt phase. And how you have to plow through that and get to the other side of it to create your art.
Catherine Dutton:Yes. Like going along with that, she also talked about knowing when to stop something. And I loved the metric that she gave us, which was like, when, what I'm doing to it is no longer adding to the project, it's just starting to take away from it. I appreciated that because sometimes it's hard to know, like, when is something really done?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah. And that was a good, a good metric to follow. Yeah. I agree
Catherine Dutton:really was. Yeah. And another thing that she talked about was perfectionism versus completing something. Her quote was, what's that old adage? Perfection is the enemy of completion. A finished project is better than one you'll never finish because you'll never achieve perfection. And I think sometimes I need a reminder of that, that it will never be perfect. because what is perfect anyways? Like who defined what perfect looks like?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Done is better than perfect. And if it gave you more ideas and you want to keep going, start another piece using those ideas. Use it as a jumping off point.
Catherine Dutton:Well, and I
Ellyn Zinsmeister:work in scenes,
Catherine Dutton:well, and I think that goes back to what we were talking about is that our creativity evolves. And as our skills improve, as we make things, our skills improve. And so, yeah, something that I made 20 years ago is not going to look the same as something that I make now because overall my skills have changed. how I see the world has changed. Of course, it's going to look different. Of course, it's going to be better. Or better? But is it better or is it just a differently honed, a more honed version of it? Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Now I agree with you. I've got a couple decades on you and I can say that that has continued in my life, you know, as things change.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. And another thing that she talked about was how she talked about it like a feedback loop, that one idea leads into another. It leads into new ideas for painting, which leads into new ideas for her dissertation, which might lead into an idea for quilting. And it's just a big circle. So I think connecting back to Dori's pay attention to what you pay attention to, pay attention to it. And then you can start thinking about how it's connecting to other areas of other creative parts of your life.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:that's a really good point.
Catherine Dutton:Thanks.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:A really good point. Who did we talk? Oh, it was Dori we talked to next and that was a really fun conversation. And we've never met Dori, to be fair.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah, we had both followed Dori on social media, and we both enjoyed her artwork very much. I loved getting to meet her and chat with her. It was a very fun talk.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:and I have to say, after we turned off the recording that day, I think we carried on for another 30 to 40 minutes, just chatting. There may be some future opportunities for us to work together in collaboration, so I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes. She started right off saying that she feels better when she's making
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:to our creativity is It's not optional. It's essential.
Catherine Dutton:Yes. And she talked about it almost like as a compulsion, right? for some people it was a choice or it's a practice that I do, but Dori was like, it is ingrained in me. And she was like, I cannot not make things. Like, I don't understand people who just sit and watch TV and don't have something busy going with their hands. And I relate so much to that. I fall asleep when I watch TV without doing something, but as soon as I've got a crochet hook in my hand or an embroidery needle or a marker in my hand, like I'm good to go.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I mean, I have a whole room for my studio for my creative things and as you know, there's always like a paint mat on my dining room table and An art journal or something laying there that I can just walk by and sit down and add to at any point. Sometimes that's a few minutes and sometimes I lose more time than I'd like to.
Catherine Dutton:But it's not really a lost time, is it?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:No, not at
Catherine Dutton:yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think when we were first married it really bothered my husband that we had to clear a space to sit down to dinner every night.
Catherine Dutton:uh,
Ellyn Zinsmeister:almost 40 years I think, um, he's pretty used to it at this point. Laughter.
Catherine Dutton:he's, he's accepted the Ellen that you are.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Well, and she talked a lot about that too, about how supportive her husband is in her creative, like he's not necessarily a visual artist, a creative person himself, but how he supports her endeavors, how he's her driver and her snack getter and all of those things. And I think for a lot of us, that's really important.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah, that's interesting. We didn't really touch on, family support with anybody else, but Dori definitely did bring that into her conversation. Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister:You did. I resonated with that because I have that in my life, you know,
Catherine Dutton:I've always been single, so, like, for me it's, yeah, it's just me.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:you do what you do, but you're accountable to me, buddy.
Catherine Dutton:This is true. This is, you definitely keep me on track, and I appreciate that. Changing the topic completely. I think one thing that was interesting was when she talked about, owning the Dreaming Bear and how she transitioned after she closed the store, like how she had to transition from being the facilitator of other people's creativity to finding her creative voice again. She even said that she didn't really start to figure out her style until the store was closed down because she didn't really have time to do that exploration when she was running the store. I think that could be something that we could take away from that is that there may be times in our life where we are focused on other parts of life that exploring our personal creative identity may not be something that we have time for, or that we make a priority we can still be creative without fully exploring all of that. But there may be another point in our life where we do have time to do that. And we can start to find our own individual style.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Right. And she talked about, too, after, after the store closed, how her body just shut down on her.
Catherine Dutton:yes, like that. She had to have almost a period of recovery.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:right. And then that made a lot of sense to me. And then after that, she started with coffee dates and catching up with old friends. And then she's like, wait a minute. I did this so I could create, I need to get my studio set up and get to it. so it was a process.
Catherine Dutton:and going back to her store just really quickly like one thing that I really appreciated when she talked about her store was that She talked about making creativity accessible to people and almost like democratizing that. When she, said this blew my mind when I found out there were families that didn't just have scraps laying around that they would play with. One girl didn't even know how glue worked. And I was like, okay, we're going to show you how glue works. And that idea of, we're just going to let people walk in here and it doesn't matter what level you're at. We'll show you how glue works. But making it more accessible to people and not expecting everyone to come in at a high level of knowledge with creativity. I think it's really important to cultivating creativity and not turning people off to creativity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I agree with you. That was fascinating to me, too. And I, part of me just wants to go visit the Dreaming Bear, which hasn't existed for a long time.
Catherine Dutton:The other thing that she talked about was self judgment. Like on her pieces because she was like, the pieces I don't like as much always go first. Who am I to judge? I don't need to love every single thing that comes through these hands. If someone else gets joy from it, who am I to judge? And I thought that was just, I love that because I've been looking at these cards that I made last year going, Oh, I want to sell them. But another part of me is like, this isn't good enough., there's no way that people are really going to like these. And That self judgment keeps coming in the way and I read her interview last night and I was like, yep Who am I to judge? Maybe it'll bring someone else joy, too.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:That's exactly right. And then when she said that, I looked at the things I have of her artwork in my studio going, Is that one she didn't, she didn't care for? Because boy, it sure makes, it brings me joy every day.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah, cuz it was funny cuz she was like some of her favorite pieces are the ones that never sell So it's it's so interesting to me like how our our art can just be very We may not even love it ourselves, but someone else will fall in love with it. But the thing that we love the most, it resonates with us for a reason, but maybe other people don't necessarily understand that full reason why it's resonating with us.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Well, art is very personal.
Catherine Dutton:it
Ellyn Zinsmeister:way I've experienced that is, is QuiltCon, submitting quilts to QuiltCon. year after year after year, and many, many, many of them not being accepted. I'm like, but it's my favorite, but this is what, this is how it speaks to me, you know, and that's okay, you know,
Catherine Dutton:Mm-hmm
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think we need to accept that sometimes our art is personal. We do it for us.
Catherine Dutton:We do. Yeah. Well, because part of creativity is personal expression and. And that may not speak to everyone, but it speaks to us. And that's the purpose of, I think, of being creative in a visual manner is allowing us to be able to see that process for ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:So this brought a crazy thought to mind, but like the classic artists, Monet, Rembrandt, you know, the classics, are the pieces that we know and the pieces that have become so valuable and famous, are those the ones they really loved?
Catherine Dutton:Who knows?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:to get into their brains and find out, Oh, that old thing? Really?
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. Wouldn't that be interesting? You know, I was watching a clip from a Dr. Who episode a few years ago. it was the doctor with Van Gogh basically it allowed Van Gogh to hear both how people really do talk about him after his death, but also like, how would he describe himself and he would describe himself as these were terrible strokes, look at these birds, You'd think he'd never even seen a bird. he was so self critical. What do we know about Van Gogh? his artwork is famous. there's so much appreciation for what he's made. and I think sometimes we don't appreciate the beauty in what we've made ourselves. So, yeah, we need to be kind to ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:that.
Catherine Dutton:hmm. Ah, yes. Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Let's talk about Mel. Mel Beach is another Person from out of town who we've never met in person, but have connected with online over time, and it was so much fun to get her perspective. The biggest thing from Mel that struck me is her focus on play. It needs to be fun, we need to play,
Catherine Dutton:Yes. Play is so important. As children, we focus so much on children playing and we make time for them to play. we know that that's how children learn. And then the way that our school systems are structured, we stop play at first grade and sometimes kindergarten, which is terrible, but like we stopped playing and we start focusing on. really workforce skills. Like how do we sit still? How do we sit in a chair? How do we focus on one task? Play is so important and we need to allow ourselves as adults more opportunities to play because that is a crucial part for how we still learn even as an adult. Even though we're capable of learning other ways, play is one of the best ways that we can learn.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:And Mel's creative process incorporates that play. So with throwing the dice, with
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:some of the things that she does, and the carving, the stamping blocks, and seeing how different ways she can use them. it's just wonderful, her, her spirit.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. I really appreciated that. And I liked how she also talked about, like, she is documenting her processes and she uses that to track her creative growth. And I never thought about doing this until she said that, like, that she takes pictures of her process and the more pictures she takes, it usually means she's struggling more on it. But like, in doing that, she can step back and get a new perspective on it. And so. Yeah, I never really thought about taking pictures as I go through a process of something, especially, I take that back, I do it with quilting. I'll take pictures of the fabric, I'll take pictures of like piecing, but with my art pieces I don't necessarily do that with. And I thought that was an interesting idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:It was interesting. I also like how she uses found objects and reuses things. Specifically, she talked about, finding some quilted pieces that she turned into quilted hearts for the I Found a Quilted Heart project. And I had never heard of that before. So I dug in and looked at the website and stuff and I'm like, that's fascinating. And that may be something that I want to play with, because it's a way of using what you have, Doing what you love and then giving back to your community and bringing joy into other people's lives. I thought that was really terrific.
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm. It really was. And I kind of appreciated, too, that she talked about how, she chooses to not, do commissions, because for her, creativity is personal, and she doesn't want to have, to do work for hire, but she'll teach people, and I think that allows her a way to share her creativity in a professional manner without the pressure of the commissions.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:And she seems to balance the teaching and her own creativity.
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:to override her time. And she talked about how the pandemic kind of was a correction point for her. It allowed her, because she said her goal for 2020 was to spend more time in the studio. And she says she caused the pandemic because it helped her accomplish her goal. But, you know, she had been spending so much time on the road and traveling and teaching, and this taught her new ways to bring her own creativity in. And she teaches a lot online now. I think she'll still travel to teach, But a lot of what she does is online, which allows for more time in her personal studio, which is great. you know, that's a delicate balance.
Catherine Dutton:it really is. Yeah, I would agree with that. All right. Well, do you want to talk about who came after Mel? Was it Charles? Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah,
Catherine Dutton:you know Charles, and what a fun conversation. I enjoyed talking to him very much.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I always enjoy. In fact, it was a conversation with Charles that kind of set my brain spinning on this exploring other people's processes and we have
Catherine Dutton:yeah, it was.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah, we have the opportunity to chat at QuiltCon every year and, a couple of years ago we were, we were at dinner and he was talking, began talking about his process and I'm like, oh wait, oh wait, this is, I think research Catherine kicked in and I was like, oh, I need to dive into this, which is not a normal response in Ellen's world.
Catherine Dutton:I remember you coming back from Quokkan and talking with me about it and it was like, yes, yes, that's what we should explore. And then as we started to talk about podcast ideas, we were like, yes, that's where we're going. We're going to look at creativity
Ellyn Zinsmeister:So I'm glad he was able to make the time to talk to us since he's the one that gave me that jumping off point. and It was interesting to hear him talk about the evolution of his process from very structured. He talked about how the planning process was like 90 percent of his work. The actual putting together the quilt is afterthought, no
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:but it was all the planning and how,
Catherine Dutton:Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:adding a design wall in his studio.
Catherine Dutton:Cause he talked about like how in the beginning everything was very pre planned, but the design wall gave him the opportunity to just kind of, Oh, he talked about marinating. I love that word. That's such a great idea, but just putting something on the design wall and it giving you time to observe it and consider it and let it marinate because it gives.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:things
Catherine Dutton:Move things around. Yeah, and you just walk in there and you see it every time you walk in there I thought that was such a great idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I think so too. And he said that that shift came because of collaboration because of his participation in the B. He was dealing with blocks made by 10 different people. He gave parameters. But the blocks were all expressed different people's creativity, so that marination process was important. It cracks me up that he does most of his designing in PowerPoint, and again, it's use what you have, use what you know,
Catherine Dutton:I loved that because do you know how many people that I've talked to you who are like Oh, I designed an illustrator and I have tried to do that and designing an illustrator is not a fun task to me And it's just I find Illustrator, it has its purposes, but it takes a lot of time to learn to use that tool and a lot of practice to use it well. And I know how to use PowerPoint really, really, oh, and it's a monthly subscription.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I was just gonna say, a lot of money.
Catherine Dutton:every month, right? But like, I have PowerPoint, But yeah, like, I just, I have PowerPoint, and I was like, I can use PowerPoint for things like that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Graph, graph paper is even cheaper, Catherine, just
Catherine Dutton:This is true. Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I found that so interesting. It's like, well, I use it at work. I know how it works. I just, that's just what I naturally did. I'm like, that is, that is so great.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. And I, I really appreciated that his day job is being an engineer, right? And I think oftentimes we think about an engineer type personality or idea as somebody who's not necessarily creative, but my goodness, first of all, you actually want engineers to be creative because they're solving problems. They're solving real world problems and they need to be creative in doing that. But his analytical thinking enhances his creativity. He doesn't see it as a hindrance.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:And how important it is for him to use the other side of his brain, and I can relate to that, too. My background is in accounting, putting little numbers in little boxes and making them all add up. It's all very structured,
Catherine Dutton:Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I love using the other side of my brain in my art,
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:and he talked a lot about that was key for him to find a way to use the other side of his brain.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. Do you want to jump in and talk about Amelia's?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Let's do that!
Catherine Dutton:Okay. Now, Amelia was different from our other interviewees. She's an art therapist, she uses art in her work, but from a different type of perspective because she's using it as a therapeutic value, rather than just as a personal expression, which is how most of our other interviewees are using it. Amelia and one of her friends, Mina, they ran what was called an Oracle lab for a couple of years online. And the idea being that every week we would gather on, Zoom and they would provide a prompt we would write a little bit and then when we would talk about it And then we would create art based off of it And we became the idea was that we would become our own oracles to ourselves and it was Therapeutic but not therapy. It was an opportunity for me to really think through some things and, and then to make art about it, I'd never really connected art to my emotions and that was a really new thing for me. And it was cool. I liked it a lot.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:And you've used that going forward, your quilt that hung at QuiltCon last year.
Catherine Dutton:Yes. it was a therapeutic quilt. Like it really was. It was something that came out of therapy and continued to be like all of the stitching that I did on that was after I'd had a concussion that changed my life. but it was an opportunity for me to start to see like, okay, there's other ways I can do things. I can't use a sewing machine anymore, but I can do things by hand and I can. I can be creative. I can still be creative without being creative in the way I used to be. So,
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I remember you sharing when you were part of those Oracle labs and how impactful that was for you.
Catherine Dutton:yeah, it really, it was a neat experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Was so interesting and talking about her practice and how she impacts others through art, but also talking about her personal, we touched on how she needs that structure. At this time, I'm going to meet with these people and create just my own work.
Catherine Dutton:Mhm. And I think one thing that she talked about that was interesting with that was like she had a digital space for creating and an analog space for
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yes.
Catherine Dutton:She was like, this is where the computer is and where the desk is. But then this desk over here is like analog. There's no computer. There's no technology here. And it allowed her to explore her creative process differently between the two spaces.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. That was really cool. And she also talked a lot about, the intersection of creativity and digital spaces, which is what her book's about. So it makes a lot of sense. One thing that she said was, here's her quote, the internet really is the thing that made my work and relationships possible. And it's a place that isn't designed with our psychological wellbeing in mind, that resonated so much with me.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah. I think about the frustration we creatives have in dealing with Instagram and some of the social media platforms and the limitations there and the ways that It really isn't a positive experience for artists. And it's like, gosh, we, we need to create our own space somehow because yeah, what's being created for us by, businessmen
Catherine Dutton:Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:is not effective.
Catherine Dutton:it's there to promote products and for them to make money. It's not really there for us to share, in
Ellyn Zinsmeister:we do our best, but it could be so much better.
Catherine Dutton:So anybody listening who has those mad skills. There's an opportunity for you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah, we're not gonna do that for you, but we'll talk about it.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah. We'll give you the idea. Put us in your credits. Thanks. Um, you know, and I think because she was a therapist, she talked a lot about like the therapeutic value of art it's not just the art. It's not just the client. It's not just the therapist, but there's a triangle of all three together that. are important in that relationship and in that, in the conversation. Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah, I think the one phrase she used was how art and creativity gives us a safe passage through difficult times,
Catherine Dutton:Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:I like that, and some of our other guests, touched on how art brought them through difficult times, but she's using that in her career To help bring other people through difficult times, and that's amazing to me. The other thing she said a couple of times was how she likes being in conversation with visual art and how that's been something she's done since a very early age.
Catherine Dutton:Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:And I love that.
Catherine Dutton:And I think as part of that conversation, she talks about how it's important in meaning making for us, that it's, What she said was it's impossible to make something that isn't already true within us. We can't bring something into the world creatively if it doesn't exist within us already. We can't be the artist that we see online that we admire. We're not going to be that person because that's not within us. We have to be us. And we may like that style. So pay attention to that style and go, okay, I like that style, we're going to be creating what's in, within us. We don't have to replicate something exactly as somebody else did it. It's not going to be the same.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:That's a great, a great place to land. And so let's talk for a minute about how we are hoping to inspire creativity in other people and what we're planning.
Catherine Dutton:Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:What we're up to behind the scenes.
Catherine Dutton:yeah. So we've been talking because we love being creative together. You and I do. And we'd really like the opportunity to bring together other creative people and inspire you to. Like embrace all of your creative juices. Ellen, do you want to tell them the big announcement?
Ellyn Zinsmeister:Yeah, we're planning and it's happening a big retreat coming up in September of this year, September 3rd to the 7th in Sunset, Texas. There's a beautiful retreat center where we can gather and be creative and encourage each other to explore our own creative path. We plan to incorporate fiber arts and visual arts and painting and maybe some journaling and. Maybe some comedy and just all kinds of fun ways to be creative. registration will open for our retreat on February 1st, and we're calling it Remix and Stitch Lab. So it's going to be a whole mixture of ideas and ways that you can explore your creativity and what it means to be creative. So I hope maybe you'll put that on your calendar and plan to join us so we can get to know you better.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah, we would really love to have you join us and dori Patrick will be coming to Texas and she will be one of the people teaching at that retreat.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:There'll be lots more details rolling out in the coming very few weeks and opportunities for you to investigate and think about how you might be a part of it.
Catherine Dutton:Yeah, we'd love for you to look at it. Thank you so much for joining us today as we have recapped our first season. I have really loved the opportunity to talk to these six people this season and to dive into their ideas around creativity. Next season, as Ellen has alluded to, we are going to be talking to people who are beyond the mixed media quilting world. And we'll be talking to other types of creatives. I hope you'll join us then season two will start sometime later this spring. Thank you for joining us again on Creative Crossroads, and we will see you again soon.
Ellyn Zinsmeister:have a great day.
Catherine Dutton:Thanks!
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