Amelia Knott on Digital Spaces, Therapy and Creativity

In this episode of Creative Crossroads, we welcome Amelia Knott, a registered psychotherapist and art therapist based in British Columbia. Amelia shares her rich journey from childhood art experiences to becoming a multifaceted professional encompassing art therapy, content creation, and authorship. Her first book, 'The Art of Thriving Online,' emphasizes navigating the digital space using creativity as a tool for well-being. Amelia discusses her creative process, the importance of focusing on the experience rather than the outcome, and how she incorporates unconventional materials into her work. She also elaborates on art therapy sessions, highlighting the intermodal shift and the importance of process over product. Amelia's insights examine balancing structure and spontaneity in personal and professional creative endeavors.

Find Amelia:
Her website: Art Therapy in Real Life
On Instagram: @art_therapy_irl
Amelia's Book: The Art of Thriving Online (Amelia's Book)

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:55 Amelia's Creative Journey

02:41 Family Influence and Early Art Experiences

04:32 Art Therapy and Professional Path

05:03 Creative Process and Evolution

11:39 Balancing Art and Therapy

14:25 Creative Space and Environment

17:33 Morning Pages and Overcoming Creative Blocks

22:40  of Structure and Community

23:58 Collaboration in Art and Life

26:31 Finding Inspiration Beyond Nature

30:00 The Role of Art Therapy

35:39 Navigating Creative Blocks

40:28 The Art of Thriving Online

44:54 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Thanks for joining us at Creative Crossroads! Keep creating and we'll see you again soon!

Transcript

Catherine Dutton: 0:35

Hello, and welcome back for another episode of Creative Crossroads. Today, I am so excited that we have the opportunity to talk with Amelia Knott. She is a registered psychotherapist, art therapist, artist, content creator, and author. She lives in British Columbia, where she facilitates Therapeutic art groups, e courses, and a weekly open studio. And she just published her first book, The Art of Thriving Online. Welcome, Amelia!

Amelia Knott: 1:04

Thank you so much for having me. I feel like we've spent so much time in online spaces together in silence, not ever having like an hour to really chat. So I'm excited to really dive in.

Catherine Dutton: 1:14

I am too. I met you through the Oracle labs that you facilitated online. And I just, I loved that experience so much. And I'm really excited to have the opportunity to talk to you about creativity and what you see as the role of creativity in your life. And so to get us started, could you tell me a little bit about what creativity plays in your life?

Amelia Knott: 1:36

Oh my gosh. It's the cornerstone of everything. That question almost, almost stuns me. It feels like everything I do in terms of my work, my home life, like every facet of my life I think is defined by the creative process. And I mean, I was really lucky as a young child to have a lot of experiences of art classes and not just the kind of art classes we might have traditionally had in elementary school, middle school. But I also had this experience of from five years old to 18 years old, working with an abstract painter. So every week getting that as a kind of Additional education to what I was learning in school. So I think my creative process has really been shaped by abstraction and improvisation, learning how to look at a composition, stand back and really be in conversation with it. And. I mean, that influences my process and everywhere creativity touches today, you know, whether that's listening really deeply to what a client is experiencing and being able to respond with the right art invitation or directive to meet whatever it is they're trying to untangle or whether it's. looking at like a home decor project or the mess in my Tupperware drawer, right? Being in conversation with the visual realm, I think is the foundation of everything I do. I love that.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 3:12

That's really great that you were encouraged at such a young age. So you, did you come from a creative family? were your parents, your siblings creative as well? how did that come about?

Amelia Knott: 3:25

They wouldn't say they are. I mean, I disagree. I think everybody is an artist. My mom. was a ballet dancer all through her adolescence and into her twenties. And I think while my immediate family, no one, I think carried that capital a artist identity. I think creativity was woven into everything, but. Like, the way that encouragement really came about, I experienced some pretty intense grief and trauma around five years old. And my mom kind of at a loss for like, oh my gosh, what do I do with my young kids? Found this art class and say, okay, Amelia's, Amelia's got that. My twin brother had soccer and sports and the kinds of things he naturally gravitated toward. So it really was, you know, Like, how do I keep my kids busy, engaged, give them a positive, outlet? and these art classes I took weren't technically art therapy, but I think because they were focused on not just learning the hard skills or the technical rendering skills that we might encounter in a typical art class, it was really about understanding color, value, texture, like, Again, being in conversation with a composition as this evolving kind of living being, I had this place in my life, in addition to language, right, in addition to conversation to make sense of things that, I mean, frankly, were senseless. And I wouldn't have used that explanation at the time. I had a friend who was a painter and liked going to painting class, but I think that really gave me this window into how art and creativity can give us safe passage through the most challenging experiences of our life. So that also I think was a direct path to what I ended up doing, which was becoming an art therapist, getting to use those skills. In addition to the clinical psychotherapy skills to help people find their own meaning and find their own healing in their own authentic way with creativity.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 5:27

That's amazing. And a ballerina is absolutely an artist in my view. Absolutely. So you came by it naturally. So do you think your process as an artist, what does your art practice look like today? Was it, was your process formed by that early exposure? Is it still pretty much the same? It's gone through

Amelia Knott: 5:53

a lot of evolution. So I think early in childhood, kind of before I'm trying to figure out if I want to use the word indoctrination here, but before I learned to follow the rules, right? And that's, I think, the place for many of us where we decide, Oh, I'm not creative. I'm not an artist. I can't draw the fruit bowl accurately or do whatever is required to get an A in high school art. I think because I went through my adolescence with this sense of like a personal language of aesthetics and a confidence, Making marks and and being in that creative space for myself that It's always informed the way I engage with other types of art. but to kind of zoom back out, I was always really creative through school. Then I went on to do a Bachelor of Fine Arts at the Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore. So I moved from Canada to Baltimore when I was 18 and really thought I was going to be a painter, right? Really thought that I was going to go into that realm. I mean, community arts was also what drew me to that school specifically, but painting is my first love. Something interesting happened in that space. I think if anyone is familiar with like the structure of art school, it's a lot of critique, right? A lot of focus on the technical skills. And on one hand, I'm very grateful to have had four years to really refine the craft or the different crafts I like to create with. And I also think kind of after that, That degree, there was some unlearning that needed to happen when I moved into art therapy school, right? There's a really different way of engaging with the art process in like a fine art degree where everyone sits around, looks at what you've made and tells you what could be different or how it could have been more successful. And art therapy is. It's kind of the opposite of that. It's so much more about how the process feels and how the finished product looks. So I think I had to kind of return to what I innately knew or was innately taught as a kid, which was, Stepping back from what good means in art and getting attuned to what feels good to make, to become an art therapist. And that's still something I'm untangling.

Catherine Dutton: 8:15

I was going to say, how do you do that? How do you untangle that?

Amelia Knott: 8:20

Oh, it's hard. I think part of it is you have to stop giving a shit. I mean, easier said than done. it's really hard, especially if we're people who sell our arts, right? If our income is tied to what we create, if, we post it online, right? So many of us have learned to shape our creative process around some external, Value scale or the metrics of a successful piece of art has to do with whether or not someone would buy it, whether or not it would perform well on social media, whether it meets, academic, Eurocentric, capitalistic standard of good enough, right? But how we untangle that, I think one thing is making art that we don't show anybody, right? Making art that is absolutely just for ourselves, maybe art that we don't even keep. I think another way, and this is something I do with clients a lot, if there's that perfectionism being a barrier to engaging in the creative process, is creating, creating circumstances where Perfection or even doing something well, I mean, well in air quotes, there is impossible, right? So maybe that is drawing your painting with your feet, scrunching up the paper ahead of time, working with like kids materials that don't lend themselves to accuracy. I think that's a way of loosening the grip on what we've learned art should look like. Getting curious about what a process could feel like if the value wasn't going to come from what it is when it's finished, but what is actually happening in the here and now in our physical and like really sensory experience of the process of making.

Catherine Dutton: 10:05

I love that. And I feel like in the classes I've done with you, that actually became an emphasis for me of learning to focus on the process and not the final product. And I've loved that. And I've started to enjoy my art a lot more because of that. what are some unconventional things that you use in your art or in your creative processes?

Amelia Knott: 10:29

It's a good question. I'm even looking around, at my materials that are sitting around me. A lot of kids materials. Uh, I have a box that just has a tape label that says nonsense on it on the other side of my studio right now. Just random things that I could hot glue to other random things. There's a set of jars over to my right that's got crayons and beads. And I think sometimes it starts with the material. One of my favorite things in my own process or with clients is to invite them to look around at the materials that they have in front of them and just see what they gravitate toward. And instead of thinking about what it's going to become, starting with a material. So sometimes that is the pile of receipts at the bottom of your purse or something you see in the kid's toy section of the dollar store, I think. There's something really, really vibrant about starting with just what you naturally gravitate toward even if you don't know why that is yet and letting that be the catalyst for whatever it becomes and really working in that spontaneous way. So I think to answer the question, like what unconventional things do I like to do? I think starting with, with material, with the sheer joy of like, Oh, googly eyes are really calling to me today, or pom poms or buttons. There's another desk in my office that I'm looking at as well that just has buttons poured across the entire surface. And I don't know exactly what they're going to become, but there was something last night about just sorting through them and seeing how they wanted to be laid out. That felt really generative.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 12:13

Do you get enough time to make art yourself? Or are you focused mostly on helping others make art?

Amelia Knott: 12:22

Oh, I think there's never enough time. I knew it. That was really the rationale for starting Anti Hustle Art Studio. And that's the group I run twice a week, the drop in group. I noticed that I was having a hard time making art just for me. And because I'm. I'm making art with clients all day or running groups. Like a lot of my creativity goes to the work I do with other people, which means a wonderful use of my creativity. But I also started to notice that I missed making art that was just for me, right? Maybe making paintings in the way I loved as a person in my early twenties. So starting that group, I thought was a way of giving myself an hour or two hours a week. with that gentle accountability of knowing like, it's on the calendar, other people are showing up and they're going to also be in the zoom room, right? That philosophy of body doubling or coworking is so useful for neurodivergent folks. So that's been helpful and still in a facilitation role. So I think in some ways that is a halfway point between the kind of art that is really just for me, but. I'd say yes and no. I'm, I'm, I'm always making things and I wish I had twice the hours in the day to make more things.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 13:40

Right. And do you work on multiple projects at a time or are you a one project, finish it and done?

Amelia Knott: 13:47

I think the easy way to answer that question is to show that I have ADHD. So, yes. Multiple projects all the time and not always getting finished. Something I realized. In my journey of understanding neurodivergence is that the joy I get from the creative process isn't just the final product. Sometimes it's being in that ideation phase, like sometimes I'd like the idea and the kind of startup inertia of a new project way more than I like finishing it. And what if that's okay, right? What if there's real value in my life from getting to, to revel in that new idea, shiny feeling and never finish every project or most projects even, I think that's probably accurate. So I think there's a lot of stuff that is happening in my studio that gets repurposed or recycled into other things. There's a lot of materials and things kind of in various states of, creation and entropy, but there's constantly multiple things going on. which always helps me kind of think of other ideas as well. Like it's, it's really kind of organic that way.

Catherine Dutton: 14:59

You mentioned your studio. Can you talk a little bit about your creative space and the environment that you like to create in?

Amelia Knott: 15:06

Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm in my home studio slash office right now. And what you two can see is kind of the Zoom professional background, right? This is where I'll see art therapy clients online. I've got A desk in front of me that is a sit down desk, so if I want some more energy or want to be in motion while I'm creating, that's possible. And then I also have a larger table to my left, um, like just a big folding table. So that if I'm, like, facilitating a group and need some more space, I can be on camera. Still. Holding that facilitation role, but also spreading out. So this kind of half of my office is where the, yeah, the on camera work tends to happen. And then my office is kind of split. And then behind me, there's the Maybe the more private art, the storage, the projects that I'm making that maybe don't end up related to my work or with clients or, or captured for social media. I have a friend who was saying to me once years ago that, He has both a desk for doing digital work, like, this is where his computer lives, where he kind of checks his phone, and then a desk that was just completely analog. It was for pen and paper. And I always thought that was kind of an amazing way of dividing spaces. I like that. So I've tried to recreate that for myself. Like, this is where I make art that, you know, It stays in the analog realm, and then over here is where I make art that might end up related to work or on the internet at some point. So having that differentiation, I think it gives me two places to, to experience my creative process differently.

Catherine Dutton: 16:52

Do you find that when you're creating in that analog space, do you ever feel like there's more freedom there or versus the, I know I'm going to post this online space. Does that crush anyone during that time?

Amelia Knott: 17:08

Well, I think we naturally edit ourselves. Something happens to our creative process when we're anticipating the digital gaze, right? Or if we're working on something that's for a commission or going into a show or going to be a Christmas gift, right? We edit ourselves and our process in a different way. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, but we're thinking about how somebody else would perceive it.

Catherine Dutton: 17:33

Mm hmm.

Amelia Knott: 17:34

It's like the difference between writing something that's going to be published versus just writing your morning pages in a completely free writing style, something different happens there. So I think the freedom I experience at the analog desk or in the morning pages is really important, especially being a person who's pretty online, right? my life and my work happens in public. So having that private space, I think is really important to maintaining my wellbeing.

Catherine Dutton: 18:06

That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned morning pages. Are you, do you do the artist's way? Have you done that? Yeah, I'm

Amelia Knott: 18:15

a big fan of half ass in the artist's way. Okay,

Catherine Dutton: 18:17

same.

Amelia Knott: 18:19

Me too. I wish we were talking about that, right? Yes. I think for some people, the, I don't want to say rigidity, but the structure of it is brilliant. Right? Yeah. People do really well with a checklist. Um, again, I'm a neurodivergent person. Consistency is not a gift of mine, but something magic always happens when, when I sit down to write in that style. Like when I was writing my book, I would often sit down And do morning pages just to get the ball rolling. And something interesting or useful would always come out of it. But I found it to be a much more effective process than sitting down thinking, Okay, I'm writing about disinformation on social media today. Let's dive into research. It was actually more effective to sit down and just see whatever wanted to come out in the writing and then dive into whatever the task at hand was.

Catherine Dutton: 19:19

There really is something about kind of just dumping everything that's in my brain onto those morning pages. And then, I don't know, it does help channel thinking as you move throughout the rest of the day.

Amelia Knott: 19:32

Mm hmm.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 19:33

Are you a morning page writer, Ellen? You know, I've gone in phases. I've gone in phases. Currently, not so much, but yeah, there have been times in my life when that's been an important piece.

Amelia Knott: 19:45

Mm hmm. I think I'm the same right now is not a morning pages phase, but other times really have been like, and it kind of just happens naturally. Yeah.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 19:56

What do you do? Does that help you if you've reached a creative block or a, or you're stuck in your creative process? What do you do about that?

Amelia Knott: 20:08

I find when I'm stuck in morning pages. aren't necessarily helpful. Um, like when I'm in that stuck headspace, my morning pages usually sound like a to do list. I find it's pretty easy to let those pages just become like a series of reprimands. Like I should be doing this. Like it just becomes me cycling in my own worry. But I think one of the most effective tools I found for getting unstuck in those moments is, I mean, I always use the same book, honestly. It's a book of Mary Oliver's poetry. I'll often just open it to a random page. Slam my finger down on a line and use that as the prompt for three pages of free writing and having something outside myself to to start the process Usually means I'm not Entering into, into that writing with the to do list or with the anxiety or the shame of being stuck in my process, right? So, Mary Oliver is, is an important ally to my creative process, I think.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 21:09

That's great. So, do, do those words, does the, does the poetry encourage your creative process beyond writing? What you're doing creatively, is that informed by words and ideas or more by visual things?

Amelia Knott: 21:26

I think it goes back and forth. Uh, I love words. I love words so much. If I hadn't gone to art school as an 18 year old, I would have gone to school for creative writing. It was really a toss up at that moment of my life. So there's a back and forth between making sense with language, making sense with, with symbols, with shapes, with color, with With the visual. So oftentimes. When I'm trying to make sense of a piece of art, I might sit back and write just the observations or try and describe it. I think going back and forth between different mediums is a really beautiful way to gain insight or start to make sense of what we've experienced in our creative process. And in the art therapy world, that's known as an intermodal shift. Right. Going from maybe I've been painting and now I'm gonna write to make sense of it. Maybe I've been dancing and now I'm gonna collage or do something with my voice to respond. So I think using different modalities to respond to one another often gives us a little bit of insight that we might not have got in that medium we were really immersed in for the first part of the process.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 22:37

Fascinating.

Catherine Dutton: 22:38

That is really neat.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 22:40

One of the things we've been asking people, and maybe you have some input in this, is how you balance structure and spontaneity in your creative work. I knew we've talked a little bit about the rules and learning, you know, all the rules and then going back to doing what feels right, instead of what professors might tell you is right. That's great. Do you find that that's a hard balance, or do you even try?

Amelia Knott: 23:11

I think I don't do it well alone, is the answer. if left to my own devices, finding structure is challenging, or at least sticking to a structure. I like designing a structure for myself, but again, consistency is hard. Right. But when it comes to creative processes that need my follow through, I'm thinking about the book, for example. Would I have been able to spend three years? writing and editing and re editing and promoting a single project if I didn't have an editor and a publisher holding that, uh, that architecture around me? I don't think so. And the same thing goes for, for Anticastle Art Studio. That grew. I think I created the structure, but it's the fact that Every Tuesday evening and Wednesday morning, there's a group of people gathering. So I think I really need other people. Whether it's taking a class or knowing I'm going to be gathering with friends or having something in a calendar or like having made a financial commitment, right? It's, I don't think it's cheating to need, to need community or to need support, uh, to create structures for ourselves.

Catherine Dutton: 24:23

I appreciate that. And it sounds like for you, collaborating with others is part of that structure creation for you. Do you collaborate with others ever, like on the products that you're creating, on the art that you're creating?

Amelia Knott: 24:40

Not very often. I mean, it's interesting because you've been in the front row to, to a collaboration. I, uh, we met in that group Oracle Lab that I ran with another art therapist, who's a dear friend. And, um, I mean, she's just my favorite person to collaborate with. I love the way her brain works and her ideas. And together we were able to create something. And because we have such a flow in the way we communicate with each other, it was really, it was really cool to get to, to build something and hold something together. Yeah. I truthfully don't do a lot of that, at least in this chapter of my life and my art, a lot of it is really solitary. Okay.

Catherine Dutton: 25:22

Okay.

Amelia Knott: 25:23

I'm glad you asked the question, though, because it's making me realize how much I miss, working with other people, sharing the mental load of creating something. it goes both ways, though. I also have really strong ideas about the way I want things to unfold. I mean, an example of that is, In the writing process, I couldn't imagine anybody else doing the visuals for the book. I really had this resistance to somebody else designing the cover, to somebody else deciding on the visual language that would accompany my ideas. So, I mean, this is a funny tangent perhaps, but in my original proposal, I think I said, yeah, there's going to be 15 to 20 illustrations. And At the end there was 180 of them that I'd done because I really just felt so strongly about being the one to have control over the visual and the narrative. So it depends. I think there's a growth edge for me there around releasing control on some projects. I mean, I think I've designed a career for myself where I don't need to collaborate on a daily basis. I get to really be the one in the driver's seat. And I think that's also a recipe for burnout in some ways, right? Being the only person who is doing all the different things.

Catherine Dutton: 26:50

So

Amelia Knott: 26:52

I think it's both. I love collaborating on certain kinds of things, especially facilitation, and I also really like to have the control of doing it all by myself.

Catherine Dutton: 27:03

I can appreciate that. I understand.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 27:05

It sounds like a lot of your inspiration comes from within your studio, specific materials or things you see, or do you ever find inspiration outside of your studio? What? What kind of place? I know a lot of people talk about walking in nature. I'm personally not a nature person. I know that sounds really bad. But I don't,

Amelia Knott: 27:28

neither am I. Okay. I feel like we're not allowed to admit that. No, I heard recently on another podcast. It's a hard thing to admit. Yeah, I heard someone describe themselves as outsides y, but not outdoors y. Which I resonate with. Oh, I like that. Yes. I, I don't know. I'm so glad you said that because I'm not a person who naturally feels safe and comfortable out in, in nature. I also live in a part of the world where there's bears and cougars and, you know, yeah, some pretty intense, pretty intense nature out there. It's a funny thing to, to not have that be a source of inspiration when that's such a common one. I appreciate nature, but it's not where I find most of my inspiration. Exactly.

Catherine Dutton: 28:15

So where do you find most of your inspiration?

Amelia Knott: 28:19

Pinterest. Ooh. Yeah. That's one answer. I think I think my clients, like one of the places I notice, ideas flow most easily is, is working with clients. So, so an example of what a session normally looks like is, you know, we might be in conversation, we might be looking at a piece of art that he created. If it's, the kind of client who is making art between sessions, I'll follow up with, you know, here are three prompts or ideas to maybe jumpstart a process. And I noticed that after having spent an hour or an hour and a half with someone, you know, talking about their life, I always leave those interactions feeling really lit up with ideas for how they might explore and express. So I think I really, yeah, take inspiration from imagining the possibilities for how we might sort something out or explore something within ourselves visually. Uh, like it really does astound me how that moment, maybe even At the end of a really long day or after having spent a lot of time in focused conversation with someone that the ideas really flow in that moment, but otherwise clothing, um, like getting dressed is one of the great joys of my life. I love, I love color and pattern and texture and, and humor. I think, I think my style of art is also very tied to the things that just, Bring levity. yeah, I think, I think that's my answer. And I mean, I know I said Pinterest at the beginning, but you know, my algorithm has been trained To serve me back humor and color and fiber and texture and all of those things. I mean, I know that curation is done with a platform success in mind, but it also is neat to have a place and have this technology that I use that knows the kind of things that I'm going to be excited to look at. You

Catherine Dutton: 30:35

know, I went to diverge just a little bit because you are an art therapist. If you wouldn't mind talking about a little bit just what art therapy looks like and how that, how creativity can help in the therapeutic process or in a therapeutic setting.

Amelia Knott: 30:51

Absolutely. I mean, and maybe it would be useful to talk about like really what sessions or the process looks like. Yeah. because we've been talking a lot about like the personal creative process, but the work is pretty different actually. So I work only online with clients. Sessions are 60 or 90 minutes. People can make art during the session. People can make art between sessions, depending on, yeah, depending on what feels right for them. Usually it will also be that dance between conversation, words, and then moving into the visual. So I'll often give a prompt and I think people are often surprised when I share how vague those prompts are,

Catherine Dutton: 31:38

um,

Amelia Knott: 31:39

like compared to the projects I might post on, on social media, which are very specific with a specific outcome in mind. When it comes to client work, I'm usually trying to give something as open ended as possible, because Um, and I think that having someone's own internal sense of what they want to make or how they want to make it is going impactful than something I could instruct or imagine for them. So oftentimes also that looks like someone working completely spontaneously, choosing a material, like I'll really encourage someone to explore and decide for themselves what they think would be useful to make in, in a certain moment or given a conversation we're having. But, Kind of zooming out usually what the process as a whole looks like is we'll, we'll gather, get to know each other, get to know what like the goals or intentions are for our work together. And. work through that with, with art. They'll make something and then we'll have a conversation about what they're seeing, what they're noticing. And that's really where the art psychotherapy training comes in and how it's different from a class or other kinds of modalities. Art therapists have a master's level training in psychotherapy. The process of, I mean, how certain projects are given and also how we talk about the art. It's pretty specific. Um, and there's, yeah, some, again, there's some pretty specific ways that art therapists are trained to do that. So there's again, this dance between Making and then conversation about the piece looking for looking for the meaning in it. And then something I'll often do after eight, 10 sessions or after we've been working together for a certain amount of time is we'll do an art review. So I'll take all the pictures that they've sent of their art and make a slideshow or put things in a digital whiteboard, right? We'll have some way of looking back at everything they've created. And that's always a really amazing process because. First of all, people often forget something they've made, but they're also seeing everything they've done over the past couple of months in one space. And it just, it blows my mind the way they'll pick out themes. Like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize I was using this shade of blue from the beginning. Or, oh wow, there's been a real change in the quality of my line work. It feels bolder or more confident now. And having those visual artifacts From every step of the process is just a really tangible reminder of the change process that happens, which is harder to capture in talk therapy truthfully, right, to actually look back and see what the progress has been in art therapy. You have the artifacts showing it to you.

Catherine Dutton: 34:26

You have an actual visual artifact, which I think could be really powerful to see. Do you ever have clients who are interested in art therapy, but they're like, but I, I don't, but I'm not creative. I don't make art.

Amelia Knott: 34:41

Absolutely. And how does that work? People often come to art therapy because they're feeling that tension. Maybe they feel drawn to do something creative, but feel that resistance and want to work through it. And what we'll do is we'll start with things that they might not have assumed were creativity, right? We'll kind of bring the expectations down and try to have some experiences of. It's just engaging with material in a way that, again, is really about how the process feels, not how the product looks. So, I mean, an example of that, uh, this is something I've done a lot with, with clients who are experiencing that block, or not feeling creative, is we'll grab ten pieces of printer paper. And spend, 10, 20 minutes ripping, crumpling, doing something different with every single piece of paper. And we could call that sculptures, we could call that just experimenting. And then looking at the 10 sculptures and, okay, which one of these feels like you today? Why? What do you notice about it? So even using something that takes, like, no degree of skill and starting to view it through the lens of, like, what metaphors might come through in this, what observations am I making, which actual physical motions of engaging with a paper felt good or felt bad, right? There's so much information that can come from working with art materials that has nothing to do with what it becomes in the end.

Catherine Dutton: 36:13

how do you navigate when you have, like, challenges? Whether it's working with a client or with yourself, where you go, I don't know what to do with this. I don't know how to move it forward anymore.

Amelia Knott: 36:25

I think that's where the art is, is really useful because it's like a third presence in the therapy room. There's this concept in art therapy called chevery triangle, right? It's not just the art or not just the client and the therapist. There's the triangle of the client, the therapist, and the artwork in conversation, kind of in three directions. So I find when there's those moments of stuckness, we can turn back to look at what's being made, and it gives us just a little bit more information. So oftentimes, I mean, I'll admit when I'm feeling stuck and not sure what to ask next, or if there's kind of an awkward moment, I'll say, okay, given what we've just explored and might reiterate some of our conversation, looking back now at the art, do you see anything new? Like we can kind of turn to the art and see if it has anything to add to the conversation. And normally it does, right? Mm

Catherine Dutton: 37:25

hmm. I really. I'm so fascinated by the emphasis on the process, but not just the process of making the art, but the meaning that we're attributing to the art. And so, and as you, whether it's as you're making the art or as you're talking about it afterwards, like, it sounds like a lot of connections can be made for people during that verbalization process.

Amelia Knott: 37:51

Hugely. Absolutely. I mean, and that's also where the danger comes from. And that's why art therapists training is really important. We know that memory and trauma live in the visual sides of our brain. And I mean, not just negative experiences, but it's really possible when someone is activating, uh, the creative and visual sides of themselves, that they'll make things that surprise them, right? In a conversation, when we're speaking out loud, we generally know what we know. I mean, sometimes you'll say something and surprise yourself, but conversation is really working the cognitive, the analytical, and then When someone's in an art process, they're making tons of decisions that they might not be conscious of. And then when you step back, sometimes it can be confronting or really surprising what has come out. I think, I mean, more often than I can count, I've had experiences with my own art or with clients where I've stood back and been like, Oh my goodness, I have represented something that reminds me of this or looks like that. It's not necessarily that, you know, a symbol has been hidden. in the work, but the way your brain makes those connections can be really revealing. And, you know, this is why it wouldn't be necessarily a safe or, appropriate intervention to ask somebody to represent their trauma. Right. Right. Because that could be a really, really activating process. It might not be, um, a safer, appropriate process to work with a really fluid or uncontained material if someone is working on feeling safe and secure. There's a lot of different considerations around the materials we choose or how we decide to work with them. To enter into a process and what we decide to represent that I think needs to be really carefully held, but the potential for someone to make meaning in something they've made is is huge and something my site or and something my my clinical supervisor often says is that it's impossible to make something that isn't already true within us. So when someone, say, is noticing, like, a sense of lightness, a sense of hope, a sense of confidence in their work, that came from inside them, right? We can't bring something into the world creatively if it doesn't exist within us already. I love that.

Catherine Dutton: 40:22

That was beautiful.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 40:23

Now, this has been fascinating. I, it, it strikes me and especially today, since this is what you do, art therapy, but I think each one of these conversations that Catherine and I have had with different artists, I've come away feeling that kind of inspiration and I'm learning something from, from each person that we talk with. And so thank you for sharing all of those insights with us. Really been great.

Amelia Knott: 40:51

Oh, I mean, such a delight to be here and I feel like finally have a two sided conversation as well, especially because we spent so much time together in groups.

Catherine Dutton: 41:02

Can you tell us a little bit about your book and how that can help people with their creative process and while they're living in an online world?

Amelia Knott: 41:10

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, something that's really impacted my work, my relationships, my creative process over, gosh, the past five years now is, It's digital space, right? I graduated from art therapy school into the beginning of the pandemic and my work went completely online. I also moved to a really rural part of British Columbia and the internet really is the thing that made, made my work and relationships possible. The positive side of that is the connective potential, the inspiration. Okay. I really love the internet. The internet is how we met. Yeah. Yeah. And. And it's, it's a place that isn't designed with our psychological well being in mind. So a lot of like my journey and what has informed my practice over the past five years has been thinking about how we hold this paradox of living in a world that is, you know, increasingly reliant on digital tools. How do we balance the parts that are really genuinely good, meaningful, inspiring, life affirming, and the parts that are incredibly damaging? And I think because I'm an art therapist, I'm always looking for the creative ways that we can address that question and, and hold ourselves in those reflections. So the book I've written, The Art of Thriving Online, really is about how we might use art and writing to grapple with what it means to choose to stay online. Because for so many of us, it's hard. It doesn't really feel like a choice anymore. Yeah. I think if I could choose to be offline, I might mm-hmm But I don't know how to do that given where I live, the work I do, where the people I love are in the world. Right. I really feel stuck being on social media and being online. So instead of living with this sense of shame or pushing back against the fact that it feels like a necessity, I'm really, in my own life, especially invested in the question of how. Art might be an ally to navigating that and even collaborating with digital space. So to get, to get practical, the book is divided into chapters that explore attention, uh, productivity, that urgency we experience online comparison, right? A comparison we feel looking at other people's art or lives on social media. Um, fear, anger, disinformation, right? The way. Social media platforms are designed to evoke our most activated negative emotions and then place fear or sorry place, uh, body belonging. So there's writing, there's research in each chapter, and then it's also a workbook. So there's reflection questions built right in there. The idea really is to take people through their own creative process so that they can author their own definition of what time well spent online could mean. I don't have the answers. I don't have a list of hacks that will make being on social media better for everybody, right? I can't prescribe that. Everybody is so different and has a different relationship with. Art with technology, but the real intention of the art of thriving online is that people can discover their own visual language, make sense of their own evolving relationship with technology and come up with their own definition of what wellness could mean and use art to do that. Right?

Catherine Dutton: 44:54

Yeah, that's actually, that's one of the things I really liked about the book as I was going through it was this emphasis on art. My experience rather than you telling me what the experience should be because so many books do that which Sometimes I want them to tell me what to do, but only but in this case, it's so personal it really does help you reflect and think about how can I be intentional in these actions? or what do I want out of these types of interactions And the illustrations in the book are so fun. I love them.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 45:28

So how can everyone get their hands on it?

Amelia Knott: 45:31

You can find it wherever you like to buy books. it's on the big websites. It's available through my publisher, Sounds True. Uh, you can also find it through your local bookstore, your local library, but it's the art of thriving online, creative exercises to help you stay grounded and feel joy in the world of social media. And that's it. It's also available in audio book. If that's how you like to consume information, um, and ebook as well, we really made sure that the audio version felt valuable. So we tailored some of the prompts to also use voice and sound, uh, just to make sure that That it as a workbook is accessible, whether you're engaging with it on paper or listening to it.

Catherine Dutton: 46:14

I love that. I wondered how it translated to audio. So I love hearing that it was a thoughtful translation. So awesome. I will be sure to include a link to it in the show notes as well, so that people can find it. Well, Amelia, it has been a pleasure to chat with you. And, um, I feel like I have taken away so many nuggets today that I'm going to have to think about and process a little bit more, but it has been a delight to talk with you.

Ellyn Zinsmeister: 46:40

Thanks for joining us on Creative Crossroads, everyone. We hope you'll come back and enjoy some more down the road. Have a great day.

Amelia Knott: 46:49

Thanks so much. Yeah, I hope to see people around the internet make art with you at some point, but it was really special to get to be here in conversation with both of you.

Catherine Dutton: 46:57

Thank you so much.